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Thread: 83 185s motor mods

  1. #16
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honda_ATC View Post
    Im looking to build the hell out of my 185s,I already have a stock 200s top end on it and id really like to get a lot more power from it.

    my friend that built one and it did 67 with stock gearing and we have always been very competitive and I plan to blow him out of the water (with stock gearing) that was the whole point of the builds, make them pull the most power and top speed with stock gearing.
    Stroker kit [as rg97 suggested], high rpm cam, big carb and big head flow.

    Do you know what mods your friend did?




    Quote Originally Posted by Honda_ATC View Post
    if I can get a motor set up like yours with great low and top end with out massive porting I'd be just happy with that.
    Power “feel” is a subjective opinion. Actual power is best determined by a dyno. In general, you cannot increase power everywhere in an engine. You can have more power on the bottom, mid or top, therefore you need to determine which ONE is the most important to you.

    In general, the bigger the cam, the more it raises the entire operating range of an engine. A big cam starts producing “power” later and quits later.

    Increasing the displacement will net you the biggest overall increase in power imo. There is no replacement for displacement or nitrous, lol.




    Quote Originally Posted by Honda_ATC View Post
    …this motor will be used for ice racing so I'd like to have that edge.
    What type of racing exactly ie., drag, long oval, short oval?

    Do you use a wide or narrow powerband for this?




    Quote Originally Posted by Honda_ATC View Post
    I've been talking to shortline10 about some parts and I've been thinking about the megacycle cam with 435 lift, seems to be the biggest wildest thing I can get in there…
    Just curious, why did you guys choose the mega cam over the web cam?


    Megacycle states that their durations are taken at .040” lift. The web cam "duration"is taken at .050”, the ADVERTISED duration is likely taken at .006" or .015".

    Since Megacycle only states one duration, and does not specify whether it is advertised duration or not, it seems difficult to compare all the differences between the two cams.

    Since the lift is the same on both cams the other differences are lsa, overlap and possibly icl.

    The mega cam has an lsa of 106 and the web is 109. Since you are looking for max top speed AND a wide power band, from what I can tell so far, the web cam with the 109 lobe center will work better for this purpose imo, however, if shortline10 has tested both these cams in the same set up back to back, I would go with his recommendation.


    78-85 200X CAMS

    Mega cycle p/n 143-40 143-40NS

    Lift .435 dur @ .040" 272 lsa 106
    In 30 btc/62 abc
    Ex 62 bbc/30 atc .006"

    Must cut cylinder head for lobe clearance. Use R/D 228-H



    Web cams p/n 55-72

    Lift 435/.395 adv dur 288/288 dur @ .050” 262/262 lsa 109


    Intake Opens 22° Before TDC
    Intake Closes 60° After BDC
    Exhaust Opens 61° Before BDC
    Exhaust Closes 21° After TDC

    Check all clearances.




    PARTS MATCHING - One important thing is to make it work together as a package, the gearing, compression, cam, ignition timing, head flow and carb etc. should All be matched to optimize performance of all the various parts.




    COMPRESSION – This must be matched to the cam, the type of fuel you use and ignition timing. You need to calculate the DYNAMIC compression and cylinder cranking pressure to determine what is beat. The STATIC compression will NOT tell you this, it is only a rough indicator. You must account for elevation when calculating this also because you lose around 4 3/4 - 5 psi of cylinder pressure for every 1000 foot increase in elevation above sea level.




    EXHAUST - In general, an exhaust with a straight through muffler provide the most top end. Supertrap makes both types of muffler/silencer. Some tracks have noise level restrictions. A straight through Supertrap might net pass.




    ADJUSTABLE CAM GEAR - Once your build is running, if you decide you want a bit more top and less bottom or vise versa, you can change the cam timing with an adjustable timing gear. Web or mega may sell them. 8 degrees is the recommended max, 4 is a preferred max. Check valve to piston clearances after wards before running.

    More adv = more rpm less bottom end.

    Less adv = less rpm, more bottom end.




    As rg97 suggested, shortline10 and four stroke tech are good sources of info.


  2. #17
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    Barnett I think that's a new record for you.
    1986 Honda 200x 1985 Honda 200x x3 1974 Honda atc90 1979 Honda atc110 1987 Honda atc125m1977 Honda atc90 x2 1981 Honda atc110 1983 Honda atc110 superior blue 1984 Honda atc250r x2 1986 Honda atc350x 1984 Honda atc auto x 1982 Honda atc70 1985 Honda atc70 1983 Honda atc200e big red


    YEAH I LIKE HONDA

  3. #18
    Join Date
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    Thank you I'll be started a new thread as soon as I start this project
    Trikes (sold)
    1984 200s
    1982 185s
    1983 200x (Bought her back ) (now sold again)
    1984 200x
    1981 185s
    own currently
    1985 250sx
    1983 185s (2)
    1982 185s
    Mini bikes
    1979 KV 75

    "If the world ended all that would be left is trail pros"

  4. #19
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    I know for a fact he just put a 12:1 in it and ran aviation fuel, that was the only mods the rest was stock, the racing I do is mainly tight corners and limited straight aways. If I can make massive low to mid range I'd be very happy with that. The only reason I said megacycle cam is because I can get one new for 120 but I'm more then willing to shell out the 140+ for the web cam. So over all I'm looking for massive low to mid range power. So maybe the 89 from web cam, 12:1 wisco and rebuild the head with stronger valve springs and bigger valves ?
    Trikes (sold)
    1984 200s
    1982 185s
    1983 200x (Bought her back ) (now sold again)
    1984 200x
    1981 185s
    own currently
    1985 250sx
    1983 185s (2)
    1982 185s
    Mini bikes
    1979 KV 75

    "If the world ended all that would be left is trail pros"

  5. #20
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honda_ATC View Post
    I know for a fact he just put a 12:1 in it and ran aviation fuel, that was the only mods the rest was stock...
    You mean his pipe and carb were also stock?




    Quote Originally Posted by Honda_ATC View Post
    the racing I do is mainly tight corners and limited straight aways. If I can make massive low to mid range I'd be very happy with that. So over all I'm looking for massive low to mid range power. So maybe the 89 from web cam, 12:1 wisco and rebuild the head with stronger valve springs and bigger valves ?
    You need to cc your head. Tell us what it is and we can calculate your dynamic comp etc based on cam choice and if you bore or stroke it etc.

    You don’t want too much compression and you don’t want too little.

    I do not know if your 200 head has bigger valves than a 185. i can look but shortline10 will know. it is VERY easy to "overport" a motorcycle cylinder head. too much and it will LOSE power.

    What fuel are you going to use. Race gas has more btu [power] than av gas. E85 is around 105 octane because it burns like c__p.

    What cam and set up were you running before at the races?

    IMO, the cam rg97 suggested is probably a good choice for you. I’ll check out the others also. Shortline10 should have some ideas too. You can run the .435 lift cam but you need to gear your bike for it. I think it is a bit of overkill for your app though.

    As mentioned, you will be very happy with a few more cubes in your engine.

  6. #21
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    I'm thinking your right with the rg97 cam, on the 185 of my friends the carb was stock with a stock header and slip on fmf pipe, I'm running the same exhaust set up as he has. As for the cc's of the head I'm not sure of right now I tried looking around and couldn't find any information on it. (So just to be clear, my current set up is a 185s lower end, stock 200 head cam piston cylinder, and carb all from a 200) I'd like that huge cam in it but I think there just too much moding to make it fit for me
    Trikes (sold)
    1984 200s
    1982 185s
    1983 200x (Bought her back ) (now sold again)
    1984 200x
    1981 185s
    own currently
    1985 250sx
    1983 185s (2)
    1982 185s
    Mini bikes
    1979 KV 75

    "If the world ended all that would be left is trail pros"

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Camexican View Post
    Have you actually ever tuned a four stroke for performance? If so what engine and how did you conclude the statement above to be true?
    El I don't know what to say to this but damn man.

    All that good technical info he provided to the o.p. in nothing more than an attempt to help him and you find one general statement to complain about? Do you have anything to add or an explanation as to why you think the statement is false? Or did you just join the thread to start trouble?

    If you think the statement is wrong, then why don't you just tell us why? Then we could be having a proper, mature technical debate.

    How do you expect him to respond to a question when you word it like that?

    I could a sent this to you in a pm El, but so could you have sent Barnett one. There's a lot of good info here and I'd hate to see another great thread destroyed by you two going back and forth over a single statement that will likely NEVER affect the o.p. at all.

    Reading the post in its entirety, it looks like some cut and paste may have been screwed up, but that's just a guess. In that case, it was a simple mistake that can not be corrected if someone does not have an edit button, which we are ALL aware that Barnett does not have. Im an idiot, I don't know what I would do without mine.

    My apologies to Honda_ATC

    Ill delete this message in a few hours. I appreciate you El but this is getting so old.
    Last edited by DohcBikes; 02-25-2014 at 12:30 PM.

  8. #23
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    One mistake does not a moron make.

    The o.p. should take every bit of secondhand info that he reads from the internet with a shovel of salt.

    See the thing is that it was a simple mistake, one that I'm sure he knows he made by now. We all do it.

    I appreciate you taking the time to explain.
    Last edited by DohcBikes; 02-25-2014 at 12:54 PM. Reason: editing is fun!

  9. #24
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    POST CORRECTION

    Hello HONDA_ATC;


    Sorry, I just saw some replies to your post when I looked at them I noticed an noticed an error in mine. I apologize for the mistake.

    More adv = more rpm less bottom end.

    Less adv = less rpm, more bottom end.

    Should read:

    Retarding the cam timing = more peak rpm and less bottom end.

    Advancing the cam timing = less peak rpm and more bottom end.

    The statement is abbreviated and could be explained in further detail.



    As evidenced by the quote below which is just one of the many comments I have made on the site regarding the affects of cam timing it should be clear that my comment above was simply a typing/cut and paste error as DohcBikes so perceptively guessed.

    Post 26 posted on 2-16-2014 from link below.
    Quote Originally Posted by barnett468 View Post
    ENGINE POWER - If it does have a huge cam and you prefer your power to come in a little sooner, you can change the gear ratio and/or buy a very cool adjustable cam sprocket/gear and advance the cam around 4 - 6 degrees. WEBCAMSHAFTS should have them.
    http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...table+cam+gear




    Quote Originally Posted by DohcBikes View Post
    El I don't know what to say to this but damn man.

    All that good technical info he provided to the o.p. in nothing more than an attempt to help him…

    Reading the post in its entirety, it looks like some cut and paste may have been screwed up, but that's just a guess. In that case, it was a simple mistake that can not be corrected if someone does not have an edit button, which we are ALL aware that Barnett does not have. Im an idiot, I don't know what I would do without mine.

  10. #25
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    POST CORRECTION FOR POST 26.


    "I noticed an noticed an error in mine." should be, "I noticed an error in mine."


    I hAve no edit button.

  11. #26
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    Well at any rate here, so were all on the same page. A 12:1 an rg97 cam and a bore should suite my needs ??
    Last edited by Honda_ATC; 02-25-2014 at 02:10 PM.
    Trikes (sold)
    1984 200s
    1982 185s
    1983 200x (Bought her back ) (now sold again)
    1984 200x
    1981 185s
    own currently
    1985 250sx
    1983 185s (2)
    1982 185s
    Mini bikes
    1979 KV 75

    "If the world ended all that would be left is trail pros"

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnett468
    Retarding the cam timing = more peak rpm and less bottom end.

    Advancing the cam timing = less peak rpm and more bottom end.
    This is what barnett said. Contradicts what you just said.
    But anyways.
    If you want to throw a 435 lift cam in there then more power to ya. Your reliability and maintenance is pretty much going to go down the drain. Theres only so much you can get out of these engines and thats pushing it.
    A better setup IMHO (but more expensive though) is a stroker crank with a wiseco high comp piston with a WEB 89a and larger valves (+1mm) with a ported intake and exhaust.
    1983 212x "Mickey Dunlap" Powroll TT Trike -Blue frame, Supertrapp (looking for a Powroll DD), WEB Stage II cam, Powroll 6mm stroker, Wiseco 10.25:1 piston stock bore, ported, polished, +2 Swinger,White low-pros and 250R front fender, BAPP rear shock, Powroll Decals, NOS Carlisle R/A's

    Gone:
    '83 185s, '86 200x, '70's Full Suspension Hi-Performance ATC RD400,

  13. #28
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honda_ATC View Post
    I'm thinking your right with the rg97 cam, on the 185 of my friends the carb was stock with a stock header and slip on fmf pipe, I'm running the same exhaust set up as he has. As for the cc's of the head I'm not sure of right now I tried looking around and couldn't find any information on it. (So just to be clear, my current set up is a 185s lower end, stock 200 head cam piston cylinder, and carb all from a 200) I'd like that huge cam in it but I think there just too much moding to make it fit for me
    Hello HONDA_ATC;

    You need to physically measure the volume of the combustion chamber, they can vary slightly. As mentioned, shortline10 or four stroke tek might have this info but it should still be measured.

    You have a 200 top end and carb and your friends bike is faster than yours?

    Out of curiosity, you might want to do a compression test with the throttle wide open.



    DohcBikes;

    Wow I missed the new action. This is better than watchin reruns of Bevis and B__thead!

    I was posting in the window prior to post 24 so I didn’t see it or the ones after until I hit the send button. Looks like I was given a whole 60 minutes to respond before I was tried, convicted and SALTED!

    FYI –The American Medical Association AND Mr. Mackey both say that salt is bad for you, mmkay!


  14. #29
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honda_ATC View Post
    Well at any rate here, so were all on the same page. A 12:1 an rg97 cam and a bore should suite my needs ??
    Hello HONDA_ATC;

    The cam you are referring to is a Web Cams part number 89a as rg97 has mentioned a few times now. Too many numbers can make it confusing, lol.

    It’s also been mentioned a few times that either a big bore or a stroker will give you lots of power.

    It’s very hard for us to determine exactly what will be enough power to make you happy. As rg97 implied, big power costs relatively big bucks.

    You also cannot run an engine with “high” compression on 87 octane gas and you have yet to tell us what octane and type of gas/fuel you plan on using. Typical 110 - 112 race gas is around $12.00 a gallon or more.

    Have you ridden your friends bike?

    If your bike is just a little faster than his bike will that be fast enough for you?

    You also haven't mentioned what your previous race set up was.


    If you have the money, I suggest you do what rg97 suggests.

  15. #30
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    Yes top end it's faster then mine how ever he has a 12:1 piston in a 185 bore. It's a hell of a job trying to get it to pull over but top end it beats mine, we both have the same gearing. I'm personally looking to get the most out of this engine with out having to mod a 435 cam to fit. If I didn't have to mod the head so much I would for sure put that cam in it I will try to figure out the cc of the head as soon as I rip the motor down
    Trikes (sold)
    1984 200s
    1982 185s
    1983 200x (Bought her back ) (now sold again)
    1984 200x
    1981 185s
    own currently
    1985 250sx
    1983 185s (2)
    1982 185s
    Mini bikes
    1979 KV 75

    "If the world ended all that would be left is trail pros"

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