Another Hair brain 200MX idea... (Please help me stop!)

[Jmoozy27]

Delrin doesn't work.

You know what else it doesn't do??? It doesn't fuse itself to the inside of your swinger. It doesn't cause you all sorts of heartache when you attempt to perform routine maintenance on a thirty year old machine. I am through with tearing my fingers up trying to get those awesome bronze engineering wonders out of a steel housing.

[onformula1]

I will all be fine, that little 125 won't be going all that fast anyway.

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[barnett468]

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I have researched and tested many different materials, they all had more issues, if Delrin works for me and is raved about by people who own gigantic UTV 2 seat buggies with extended arms, 24" plus of suspension travel and huge air, I am good.

Please tell us which, if any of the materials listed below you have "tested", and have found to have "more issues" than Delrin so that I, and others, will be aware of these problems and avoid said materials in the future.

Please tell us EXACTLY which type of Delrin you compared them to also because there are several.

Please also explain the test method and duration of the test, and the "issues" you encountered etc.


.....TYPE ……... Compressive strength …… Dynamic CF …….Hardness …… Tensile …. Wear …….. ME

SAE 954 BRONZE …… 22,000 psi* …………….. 0.37* …. B17/RB83/R156 .. 70,000 ….. N/A .. 14,000,000*
CARBON GRAPHITE*. 50,000 psi ………………... Low ………………… N/A ……… 11,000 ….. Low …. 4,003,000
KETRON CM CA30 ….. 29,000 psi ……………….. 0.20 …………. D93/M102 ….. 9,000 ….. 150 ….. 1,250,000
NYLUBE MO .………….. 14,500 psi .……………... 0.12 …………. D85 ……………. 12,300 ……. 32? ..…. 508,000
DELRIN AF [BLEND] .. 16,000 psi ……………….. 0.05 …………. M85/R115 ……. 8,000 ……. 57 …….. 485,000
DELRIN [POM-H] ……. 16,000 psi ……………….. 0.25 ………….. D86/R122 …. 11,000 ….. 200 …….. 450,000
NYLON HS ……………... 14,000 psi ………………. 0.39 ……………..D84 …………… 11,600 …. N/A …….. 478,600
ACETAL [POM-C] …… 11,000 psi ……………….. 0.21 ……………. NA/R86 ………. 8,800 …. 200 …….. 400,000
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[barnett468]

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You know what else it doesn't do??? It doesn't fuse itself to the inside of your swinger. It doesn't cause you all sorts of heartache when you attempt to perform routine maintenance on a thirty year old machine.

From the 81 thru 84 ATC250R service manual.

SWINGARM BEARINGS – Service after every 30 days of operation.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manual...vicemanual.pdf

Imo, it’s unreasonable to extend the service period of these bearings from every 30 days of operation to every 30 years and expect them not to be seized to the sleeve or expect the sleeve not to be seized to the bolt.



The comment below from oscarmayer suggests to me, that unlike some other people, he is aware of the importance of servicing the swingarm bearings.

We are going to be putting grease fittings and grease groves in the Delrin bushings so that will help with movement.

If the bearings and sleeves on the vehicles that have seized bearings and/or sleeves had been serviced prior to being stored outside in South Florida for the last 30 years, they would likely not be seized.

Just because one uses Delrin for bearing material, it does not preclude the need to clean and grease them on occasion . . If one cleans and greases Bronze bushings on occasion, they will never, ever seize.

Blaming any bearing for seizing because the vehicles owner failed to properly maintain them seems illogical to me.

I also fail to understand why some people might take their car or truck etc into the shop so they can grease the joints during a regular service then think that it is unnecessary to do that on their ATV which they ride thru the sand, mud and water etc.



PS - The specific bronze bearing material I posted is much more resistant to corrosion than the bronze bearing material found on most of these bikes, which may be another reason they use it or a similar material in the landing gear of 747 jets etc, however, perhaps they should switch to Delrin just to be safe.
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[bkm]

Lol, right on schedule.

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[onformula1]

HEY NOW!

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[barnett468]

.

Break out the Excederine then, because the "Facts" will be here shortly giving you the best Google copy and paste he can find.

I love Google, that’s where I learned how to be a Professional Racer . . The information I found there allowed me to skip right past many grueling years of practicing and riding at the lower levels and go straight to the big time, not to mention all the money I saved by not having to do that . . Maybe I could even read up on how to win the Baja 1000 and cruise to an easy 1st place finish next year.


I even found this cool old vintage ATV race photo on Google and cut and pasted it here.

.........................

[bkm]

This message is hidden because barnett468 is on your ignore list.

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[onformula1]

BKM, did you "Copy and paste this?" I saw that on Google.

[Jmoozy27]

[/QUOTE]If the bearings and sleeves on the vehicles that have seized bearings and/or sleeves had been serviced prior to being stored outside in South Florida for the last 30 years, they would likely not be seized.[/QUOTE]

I can't speak on anything in Florida as I only vacation there. Although I have fought with many of these bearing one instance that comes to mind is when I was waiting for a set of bushings to be machined, I removed the old bearing which sucked, I then installed new oem bearings because I figured they would easily be removed. When the bushings arrived, less than a month later, I was unable to remove the bearings without breaking one of them. The bushings have been removed/installed for service many times.

[/QUOTE]Blaming any bearing for seizing because the vehicles owner failed to properly maintain them seems illogical to me.[/QUOTE]
No one is blaming anything/anyone, just speaking about experience. That's right, your not the only person that has ever experimented with trial and error.

[/QUOTE]I also fail to understand why some people might take their car or truck etc into the shop so they can grease the joints during a regular service then think that it is unnecessary to do that on their ATV which they ride thru the sand, mud and water etc.[/QUOTE]

I use a lot of grease on everything I own buddy

[/QUOTE]PS - The specific bronze bearing material I posted is much more resistant to corrosion than the bronze bearing material found on most of these bikes, which may be another reason they use it or a similar material in the landing gear of 747 jets etc, however, perhaps they should switch to Delrin just to be safe.
.[/QUOTE]
The is a forum on 3 wheelers, not commercial jets.

[oscarmayer]

Barrnett, sorry bud, but I'm going with Derlyn. I will report my results and findings so we can all see actual followed results. No hidden stuff, will include images.
So lets move on with other stuff.

This weekend, I'm butting the 350X swinger to fit the 125. before I do that, I gotta re-assemble the rear w/axle and then alight the sprockets. before I cut it.
will post photos later.

[barnett468]

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Barrnett, sorry bud, but I'm going with Derlyn.

From post 62.

…sure it makes sense, and I can certainly see how that can preclude the use of stock bearings… ...and what you are using certainly will work.

I know you’re going with Delrin as evidenced by my reply to you above, however, your “friends” though it would be amusing to continue beating the subject to death and imply that I said Delrin wouldn’t work, even though I clearly said that it would as is also evidenced by my reply to you above . . They obviously like trying to make an issue out of something that shouldn’t be an issue and make it sound like I said things that I didn't which can be a problem . . imo, sticking to the facts would be much better.

The main point of my post was simply to show you some alternatives that I know work because I have used them, it’s that simple . . You said you understood my point so that was the end of it as far as I was concerned . . I could care less what anyone uses for bushing material because it’s not my bike, but in cases where I know there are either equal options for less money, or better options, I will at least mention it so they are aware of these options and can make a more informed decision, which is all I did in this case.

I even posted a type of Delrin that is a little better for this app than the one you are using in case you might want to try that. I have absolutely nothing against Delrin and I have probably used more Delrin than every single person on this site combined . . I even had it on my Phantom paint ball gun, lol . . I also had it in the pivot area of the suspension arms on many of my cars.

As far as somebody’s comment saying this is a 3 wheeler forum, it’s not for commercial jets, this doesn’t make any sense because it implies that just because millions of ATV riders lives don’t depend upon a particular part like the lives of people that fly commercial jets do, a part of lesser quality can be used in an ATV . . Well, of course it can, but if there is a cost effective option for a better part, then I see no logical reason not to use it, that's all I'm saying.

I would think that the one line below from my original post should also suggest that I don't think that Delrin won't work for this app because it says that I would not use Nylon or POM-C . . It does not say anything about not using Delrin . . Also, the Delrin AF will not only flex LESS than the standard Delrin, It also has a much lower coefficient of friction AND it will flex less AND it has a much lower wear factor, and because of it’s self lubricating qualities, it will remove easier from the swingarm if the grease dries up . . The only bad thing about it for this app is the high cost but the Nylube works out to only around .70 cents per bushing more and it is very cool stuff . . At least it’s cheap enough to experiment with if you wanted and it is slightly more rigid than both Delrins and it is self lubricating.

I listed these in order of my preference and strength against compression . . I would not use Nylon or the Acetal POM-C

[Red Rider]

Barnett, can you please drop the subject so we can get back to the build?! A lot of members tune in to this thread (myself included) so we can see the progress on this project, but you've turned this thread into "barnett's good build ideas."

You've got a lot of knowledge & good recommendations, we get that. But don't get upset when somebody decides to go a different route than what you'd do. Feel free to start your own build to showcase your ideas & knowledge.

[Jmoozy27]

Oscar, what year 200x frame are you using? What mods will be done to it? Gussets? Shock mount replacement?

[oscarmayer]

Hey Jmoozy27,
The bike is 1993 CR125R and is a former supercross bike.
The trike is my 1984 ATC 200x. I have not torn into the X yet to decide where and how much to gusset. That will be after everything else is done. I will gusset around the mods and any mods will have reinforcements so they fix issues already.
The suspension is off my 1985 ATC 350x that is being built as a Baja race trike. The swinger and shock and forks. We will also use our new custom swinger upgrades to support it in the 200x

Here is a photo of the supports we built. There will be a custom outside cover that will sandwich these collars against the frame and seal it from dirt and water.



This is on the 350X but will be done the same to the 200x. No more stupid sliding swinger. It will be a rear adjustable swinger like the better machines are.

Shock mounts will remain stock. 200x mount points will be reinforced. Shock will be a hybrid Milner special. 200x shock body with custom rod and 350X clevis for the final touch. So it will bolt to each place just like stock.

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