ATCr125x

[Jmoozy27]

OK, on the 350X & 250R setup Mike and I are using we only had to slot one hole 2mm, it is a powerful upgrade with the two piston set and modern style.

I thought it would be easier, but I don't have a 1986-87 200X to compare with.

I'll try and shoot you some pics of the setup that I have. Maybe I missed something. The caliper isn't in the best of shape either.

[onformula1]

It's good, just a different setup then we talked about before.

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[barnett468]

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The calipers must be matched to the master cylinders being used . The bigger the piston area is in the caliper, the less effort it will require to stop, HOWEVER, it will also increase the distance the pedal or lever must travel to stop.

It is a direct 1 to 1 ratio . If you increase the caliper piston area by 10%, the pedal will travel 10% further than it did before providing the brake pad area remains the same.

I know of MANY people that have swapped brake parts around thinking they will see an improvement only to find out they don't work as well as they did before the changes.
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[Ol Deuce]

Man your 125 is looking really fine !!! when are we going for a test ride !!

[ironchop]

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The calipers must be matched to the master cylinders being used . The bigger the piston area is in the caliper, the less effort it will require to stop, HOWEVER, it will also increase the distance the pedal or lever must travel to stop.

It is a direct 1 to 1 ratio . If you increase the caliper piston area by 10%, the pedal will travel 10% further than it did before providing the brake pad area remains the same.

I know of MANY people that have swapped brake parts around thinking they will see an improvement only to find out they don't work as well as they did before the changes.
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Truth.

I learned this the hard way on custom bike builds many years ago using mismatched masters and calipers.

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[Jmoozy27]

Man your 125 is looking really fine !!! when are we going for a test ride !!

Very soon, hopefully by the end of the month.

[onformula1]

Truth.

I learned this the hard way on custom bike builds many years ago using mismatched masters and calipers.

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Next, time you have a issue, give me a call and I can walk you though it there are many, many factors to braking components. It is not cut & dry.

But none of this matters in Jason's case since it has worked for Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Husqvarna on production bikes and quads.

This system is also used on the Honda 350X & 250R and they has the best rear trike brakes ever.

[barnett468]

...there are many, many factors to braking components. It is not cut & dry.

This system is also used on the Honda 350X & 250R and they has the best rear trike brakes ever.

FACT - The effect of the ratios is absolutely cut and dry, I have only designed and tested countless brake systems, plus the math for calculating the ratios has remained the same ever since mathematics was invented.

FACT - The ATC250R brakes are in NO WAY better than the TECATE brakes . We bought a brand spankin new water cooled ATC250R that we used to compare to the 1986 TECATE test bike, and every single aspect was compared including performance and ergonomics and ease of maintenance etc, and I can unequivocally state that there was some difference but not a lot, and overall the Honda brakes were certainly good but in no way were they better than the TECATE, and this was also the opinion of FOUR other R and D personnel that tested it after we were nearly done with it and we didn't always agree 100% . I also preferred the way the TECATE brakes worked, however, some may prefer the Hondas which were definitely acceptable to me also.

I am kinda lazy so I don't like to expend a lot of energy trying to slow down or stop, so I prefer brakes that stop with as little effort as possible and the TECATE brakes took what I considered to be fairly little effort . I also don't like to twist a throttle very far for the same reason, which is one of the reasons the TECATE has a fairly quick throttle on it . This being said, it is absolutely ludicrous for anyone to claim the Honda brakes are "...the best rear trike brakes ever.".

If ANY high performance Kawasaki off road product had crappy, or even marginal brakes, no one in R and D would have approved it for production and we would have worked on it until we deemed it acceptable no matter what it took to do so . I even made a few custom brake levers that I tested on some front disc brake bikes to try and get them to work as well as we wanted.

If someone is trying to compare a 30 year old TECATE to a 30 year old Honda, the results will vary depending on rotor wear and type of pad being used and modifications to the bike etc . The type of brake fluid can also have an affect.
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[onformula1]

^^^^ I got $20 bucks that says I can get 90% (Or more) of what Barnett468 said and I can't even see it.

[barnett468]

^^^^ I got $20 bucks that says I can get 90% (Or more) of what Barnett468 said and I can't even see it.

I got $20 bucks he wouldn't even understand 10% of it anyway so there is no point in him attempting to read it.


Duhhh.

[DohcBikes]

There's something weird to me about a guy that always wants to give private advice to members of a public forum. Sure seems like he wants to have his advice go unchallenged, for whatever reason.

[barnett468]

There's something weird to me about a guy that always wants to give private advice to members of a public forum. Sure seems like he wants to have his advice go unchallenged, for whatever reason.

I thought these forums were for sharing knowledge, not for keeping it to ones self . Guess I'm WRONG.

[El Camexican]

Sorry in advance Jason…

The amount of force one piston can exert upon another in a hydraulic system may be easily calculated, but I would think that as it applies to a braking system many other factors would come into play. Tire diameter, contact area, disc diameter and material as well as pad material, vehicle weight and distribution of it, etc., etc., etc. I would think all this and more needs to be considered when deciding where to start on a system, but as Milner has pointed out on this particular build I doubt you’ll notice anything that you can’t adjust you riding style to.

As far as the question posed to why anyone would go offline to discuss something let me throw this out there; If you were trying to get something accomplished would you want a couple of armchair experts tearing into your every word and making you spend hours on end explaining yourself only to forget to cross a t or dot an i and then have to spend another hour explaining what you meant to someone who’s soul reason for asking was to try and one up you? That would be a best case scenario where the self-proclaimed experts actually understood what the real expert was trying to say. Unfortunately more times than not it’s someone who hasn’t had grease under their fingernails for a decade just trying to make themselves look smarter than someone who likely has them beat by a couple dozen I.Q. points. AND still works on real vehicles and not some hypothetical machine in their personal vacuum of a mind.

Those who can do and those who can’t seem to stay up late on their computers trying to waste their time of those who are trying to get things done, or so it would seem on this site at times. It’s one thing to take a poke at someone who’s welded together a 20” swing-arm out of bedframe angle, or pissed into his radiator to top it up on the trail and wants to know the best PH level for his engine, but when someone who actually can teach some of us something is chased into the PM box by someone who hasn’t learned anything since before the dawn of USD forks and power valves it’s pretty sad.

Maybe if the “experts” would just STFU for a while we could all learn something from those who do have something to share. Anyone else here find it odd that a guy with more than 4,600 posts (and 3 bans) in just over 3 years has started just 10 threads?!?! Could it be said person has no life outside Googling information in a quest to trying to make others look like their lesser? How a socially parasitic is that?

I for one am glad onF1 has the class to avoid engaging with the peanut gallery. I prefer he stay focused on helping me and others via PM so that crap like this doesn’t slow him down. If I wanted to be told to fill my forks to the top with 50W oil to stiffen them up, or that cast iron and cast steel are the same thing I’d openly post the questions on here where I’m sure I’d get at least two answers... both of them wrong.

I’m sure they have something to offer the site, but it’s hard to imagine it will ever outweigh the rest of the crap we have to put up with.

PS. This seems to have been a big issue for both our resident experts to get their heads around. Maybe this will help, besides, it’s FREE... just like those cute little blue Hondas were

http://motocrossactionmag.com/home-p...ut-your-clutch

(3) The spring-loaded coupling is comprised of two parts that are joined together by a pack of clutch plates designed to slip against each other before locking themselves together. Why do they have to slip? Because if the plates didn’t slip, the bike would lurch into gear so suddenly that the engine would die from the sudden load. Because the plates are spring loaded and controlled by the clutch lever, the rider can release the clutch slowly or quickly depending on the circumstances.

[bkm]

^Quite possibly one of the best posts I've ever read on here.

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[barnett468]

PS. This seems to have been a big issue for both our resident experts to get their heads around. Maybe this will help, besides, it’s FREE... just like those cute little blue Hondas were

http://motocrossactionmag.com/home-p...ut-your-clutch

(3) The spring-loaded coupling is comprised of two parts that are joined together by a pack of clutch plates designed to slip against each other before locking themselves together. Why do they have to slip? Because if the plates didn’t slip, the bike would lurch into gear so suddenly that the engine would die from the sudden load. Because the plates are spring loaded and controlled by the clutch lever, the rider can release the clutch slowly or quickly depending on the circumstances.

I guess he's referring to the guy quoted below because I don't know anyone else that would disagree with that clutch article if they understood it correctly, because of course clutches are designed to slip against each other and the pressure plate just like automotive clutches are UNTIL the clutch is fully engaged, at which time there should be no slip, or at least that's how KAWASAKI designed them which may be a stock TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe will in fact beat a stock Honda atc250 10 times out of 10 in a heads up drag on the asphalt even though it has ONE LESS GEAR in the transmission.

In FACT, the TECATE clutch is so "grabby" that it often chatters a little when engaging it, and the engineers that designed the clutches told me that with all things considered, it was better to leave it like that than for them to try and design a new clutch for it since I considered the chatter to be within an acceptable level.

What they are NOT designed to do is slip AFTER they are fully engaged to "help keep the engine on the pipe" as the person quoted below obviously believes.

I certainly doubt if I or KAWASAKI would have won as many races as we did if we had clutches that slipped so they could help keep the bike on the pipe.

FACT - If you have a clutch on ANY bike that slips long enough to "keep the engine on the pipe", it is trash.

Stock 2 stroke clutches are engineered to slip a small amount from the factory it helps with wear on the transmission

helps to keep the engine " On the pipe".

From the article.

(1) A motorcycle clutch is a “deadman switch.” When it is pulled in, the engine is disconnected from the drivetrain. When it is released, the engine and the drivetrain are hooked up.

(2) The trick is to have enough spring pressure to ensure that the coupling will stay engaged under the load of 50 horsepower, but not be so strong that the human hand can’t disengage the coupling.

(4) For maximum hookup, the stiffest possible clutch springs are desirable... Of course, while softer clutch springs are easier to modulate, they also lack the clamping pressure required to keep the drivetrain engaged under heavy loads.
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