What happens in Vegas,,,,

[ironchop]

....

Registration?

You know that form you fill out when you buy a gun? The 4473?

Do you really think the .gov doesn't have a record of gun purchases?....

I been trying to tell people this for 20 yrs. and all I get is a blank stare.

That's why "private sale background checks" are so important to them. That is all they would need to close the registration loophole left open from them tracking purchases thru FFLs while everyone is distracted fighting an actual gun registration push. Meanwhile, at The Back Door........

"It's not registration, it's just a background check. Just common sense!"

BTW, all my papered firearms always get sold thru an FFL so there's a trail leading to me and a trail leading away from me for this very reason.



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[redsox]

Jus so ya know sox, I'm not trying to be a dick, just trying to get a feel for why some think that licensing is some sort of solution to ANY gun "problem".

You were just shown one of the main problems with licensing/registration. "They" know you have a gun or guns by requiring you to acquire a license to protect yourself My state does the same thing.

How f'ed up is that? My state has what is called "Duty to Retreat".



That means if you wake up some night to someone in your house and they threaten you with a gun, knife, whatever, you have duty to retreat before you defend yourself. Try to get out of a door and run away, basically. That's even more f'ed up. If your out for a night on the town and someone tries to rob you, you have to try to run away before you defend yourself. W in T ever lovin' F?

Registration?

You know that form you fill out when you buy a gun? The 4473?



Do you really think the .gov doesn't have a record of gun purchases?

So what issues will Registration/Licensing solve?

The Government does have a record, but, believe it or not(sarcasm), its disastrously incorrect. It is better now in the digital era than it was in the paperwork days because less people are involved in the process. In the old days, (1990's) in Massachusetts, we were on a system referred to as "the blue card system" where each firearms sale was recorded on a blue card and the card was sent into Boston. Well, it was someones job to organize and record the information on said "blue cards." But, not shockingly, the senators nephew, or whatever crony hack nepotism hire was in that position, didn't do his job and literally hundreds of thousands of "blue cards" went into storage. The result is that nearly every single law abiding gun owner that owned a gun in Massachusetts before the digital system now owns a gun(s) of which the Government is unaware. Secondly, the tracking system has no checks and balances. Example- Lets say I bought a gun in 1993 from a store, and it went into the system. Then, in 1994 I sold the gun to Scooter. I did all the paperwork and filled out the "blue card." Now, that transaction, as previously described, went unrecorded in the system, therefore showing that i still own the gun. Fast forward 12 years, Scooter sells the gun legally, using the digital database to Barnett. Now, a search of the gun in the computer will show two owners, Barn and I. Its a farce.
I'd also like to briefly speak to the "multiple sales" tracking. The ATF is not flagging traditional gun owners who hit a scratch ticket and go buy 3,4,5, new weapons they've been dreaming of. The multiple sale tracking is a profiling technique that works well because first-time criminals are often pretty stupid. I'd argue that the purchase of 5 of the cheapest identical 9mm Hi-Point pistols by a female who's never before owned a gun is reasonable grounds to be inquisitive. Do you disagree? Is she likely within her rights to do so???? Probably. But we've got to be reasonable. Lets say they pull video of the transaction and she's with her boyfriend in the store who is selecting the guns to buy and only leaves at transaction time. Has she broken the law? Is she protected by the Second Amendment? Now, lets say parking lot footage of the pair reveals his license plate, and the boyfriend is a well known meth-head with multiple prior convictions. Does the Second Amendment still protect her? Where does it end, I guess, is the universal question... I don't have the answer.

[Scootertrash]

The ATF is not flagging traditional gun owners who hit a scratch ticket and go buy 3,4,5, new weapons they've been dreaming of.

Well, let me relate my experience to you.....

Back in about 2012, when an Election had people all fired up about a certain set of individuals enacting more ridiculous gun restrictions, I opted into a group buy on AR15 lower receivers at what would have been the "normal" price at the time when everybody was jacking prices up thru the sky. I ordered 5. My Transferring dealer is what the anti-gunners call a "Kitchen Table Dealer" No storefront, he does business out of his home, and has been for around 25-30 years mainly buying for himself as a collector and doing transfers for close friends. He never really actually made a business out of it. He called me when the receivers arrived at his house, I went over and filled out the paperwork, got "delayed" (I'll cover a little more on that in a sec.), and went back a few days later after the transfer was "allowed to proceed" and picked up my items.

Approx 3 weeks later the dealer was contacted by an agent who wanted to come over and inspect his bookkeeping. After the inspection he told my dealer to pass a message on to me: "Maybe you should get a dealers license." I had to explain to my transfer guy that I am legally allowed to purchase as many firearms as I wish as long as I'm not reselling the firearms. I still have all 5 lowers.

Coincidence?

As far as the "delayed" deal on my transactions, that wasn't the first time it's happened. I'd say about 70% of my transactions are "delayed", but they always end up being "allowed to proceed" within a day or two.

I contacted the ATF and asked why I keep getting "delayed" I was told by the agent that they are not allowed to disclose that information, even to the individual who is being "delayed". All he could tell me is that there was probably someone with a similar name that threw up a flag and they had to do a little research before they allowed the transaction to proceed. He said I could put my SS# on the form, I asked if I would still be "delayed" he said "Probably". He then told me I could apply for a PIN (Personal Identification Number) I asked "Will I still be delayed?" He said "Probably". I said "Well then, what's the point?" He just laughed and said "I hear ya man. I don't make the rules". We joked around for a couple minutes, he actually seemed to be a pretty cool guy.

I had some minor brushes with the law in my misdirected youth, but never anything remotely serious.

Any type of registration or licensing will only affect honest law abiding gun owners. Criminals aren't going to be affected, because they don't obey the law and they don't care if they don't. The majority of criminals get their guns off of the street cheaply, they don'y buy retail, the authorities can use the person's info on the 4473 to track the buyer down and find the other party that way, not to mention the prolific use of cameras in this day and age as you mentioned.

If they are going to enact more "common sense gun laws" (As the antis like to call them), they should be laws that affect those who commit crimes with guns and stiffer penalties for those who steal guns. There is already enough restrictions on law abiding citizens.

Where does it end? As far as I'm concerned it should end now. There are more than enough laws on the books, they just need to be enforced.

[redsox]

I have more to write, just a bit cramped for time until tonight, but, in your case, would you say this an example of a broken system, or a system working properly?

[Scootertrash]

In my case? which part? Being told I should obtain a dealers license, or being denied because my name possibly matches up with someone who shouldn't be allowed to buy firearms?

[redsox]

I'm only going with what you've told me Scooter, but it doesnt sound like you were denied. Were you? It sounds like you were delayed while they double checked (because they're inept). It also sounds like you were not "told" to get a dealers license. From reading what you wrote it sounds like that was the guy's suggestion to abate your distaste for being constantly delayed. I see the process much like I view airport security. A necessary delay that you prepare and account for. You gotta show up two hours early. You know the people doing it are terrible at it. Its uncomfortable and annoying. AND its not going to stop someone hell-bent on taking down a plane. What it does stop are the fringe players with a screw loose. I buy guns when i don't need them so that i already have em' when I do.

[Scootertrash]

Not denied, I was delayed, and have been multiple times thruout my life (more often then not) after becoming legal age to purchase firearms.

You should re-read my post. The "suggestion" by the agent to get a dealers license was because I purchased 5 AR lower receivers, which is well within my rights as a law abiding gun owner. He apparently assumed that I bought them to resell them which was, and still is, incorrect.

The suggestions made to "abate my distaste" for constantly be delayed were:

I contacted the ATF and asked why I keep getting "delayed" I was told by the agent that they are not allowed to disclose that information, even to the individual who is being "delayed". All he could tell me is that there was probably someone with a similar name that threw up a flag and they had to do a little research before they allowed the transaction to proceed. He said I could put my SS# on the form, I asked if I would still be "delayed" he said "Probably". He then told me I could apply for a PIN (Personal Identification Number) I asked "Will I still be delayed?" He said "Probably". I said "Well then, what's the point?" .

A necessary delay that you prepare and account for.

No, it's not a necessary delay. There is no reason to violate my right when I do not have a criminal record or a past history of violence or mental instability. It's a crock of sh!t.

FWIW, I've sat by my transferring dealer every time he's called in my 4473. From what I can tell the people on the other end of the phone are professional, knowledgeable, and polite. I can't say I can say the same for the minimum wage flunkies doing airport security.

What it does stop are the fringe players with a screw loose.

You sure about that? Steven Paddock, the Las Vegas shooter, legally purchased 33 firearms from Oct. 2016 to Sept. 2017.

More here:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...heir-guns.html

I buy guns when i don't need them so that i already have em' when I do.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with this statement. If you are somehow insinuating that I "needed" those 5 receivers so badly that that is the reason I'm frustrated with being delayed, you'd be wrong.

You seem to be justifying your support for registering and/or licensing to acquire firearms with the "If it saves just one life" argument used by antigunners. History, and the ridiculous amount of failed or unenforced gun laws have proven that to be false.

[ironchop]

I got delayed every time until I got a Concealed Carry permit in IN.

I got outright rejected once buying a new Sig 220 back when local LEOs did the checks. The police clerk recognized my name from an old group of punks I used to run with after highschool and she assumed I had a felony like the rest of them without even looking it up. I fought that and proved her wrong. The chief made her apologize to me and the gun dealer both to keep her job. Got my Sig. Every time after that it would be delayed again and they would never call back but if the dealer doesn't hear from them again after 72 hrs, the sale proceeds. If they call back after initial delay, you ain't getting no gun today.

That crap is why I filled out my paperwork for a CC permit at the same clerk's window on the spot that day and my delays were over for as long as I had the permit.

I only held the permit for 8 yrs because in Indiana, I couldn't seem to stop getting pulled over and it was always such a HUGE undertaking with officers and the "for your safety" protocol they have to follow. I got tired of laying face down in the street because rookies freak out when you say "I am a concealed permit holder and there is a loaded weapon in the car with me.".... They don't discriminate between lawful permit holder with gun or total wacko felon with gun. So you play the whole "hands on top your head, walk backwards" routine. They would take my pistol, sometimes dismantle it, always unload the mag and chamber and put it in my trunk before I could drive away. People like to call 911 on you too if they catch a glimpse of a gun because they hate guns enough to not care if you're legal or not. I ended up moving away from Indy suburbs to rural southern Kentucky and there's so much less crime and murder here that I feel relatively safe unarmed so I've never bothered with a Kentucky permit.

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[bkm]

I got delayed every time until I got a Concealed Carry permit in IN.

I got outright rejected once buying a new Sig 220 back when local LEOs did the checks. The police clerk recognized my name from an old group of punks I used to run with after highschool and she assumed I had a felony like the rest of them without even looking it up. I fought that and proved her wrong. The chief made her apologize to me and the gun dealer both to keep her job. Got my Sig. Every time after that it would be delayed again and they would never call back but if the dealer doesn't hear from them again after 72 hrs, the sale proceeds. If they call back after initial delay, you ain't getting no gun today.

That crap is why I filled out my paperwork for a CC permit at the same clerk's window on the spot that day and my delays were over for as long as I had the permit.

I only held the permit for 8 yrs because in Indiana, I couldn't seem to stop getting pulled over and it was always such a HUGE undertaking with officers and the "for your safety" protocol they have to follow. I got tired of laying face down in the street because rookies freak out when you say "I am a concealed permit holder and there is a loaded weapon in the car with me.".... They don't discriminate between lawful permit holder with gun or total wacko felon with gun. So you play the whole "hands on top your head, walk backwards" routine. They would take my pistol, sometimes dismantle it, always unload the mag and chamber and put it in my trunk before I could drive away. People like to call 911 on you too if they catch a glimpse of a gun because they hate guns enough to not care if you're legal or not. I ended up moving away from Indy suburbs to rural southern Kentucky and there's so much less crime and murder here that I feel relatively safe unarmed so I've never bothered with a Kentucky permit.

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I've worked with a couple of guys who would act like that. Being the same rank, the only thing I could do is tell them how stupid and afraid they looked. Then after I was promoted, I had a goofball on my squad who tried pulling that crap. That was the last time he did that around me.

There is a way to conduct yourself with a ccw holder and that's not it. There is also a fine line between officer safety and acting like you're going to piss your pants because someone is armed.

If I stop someone for a stupid traffic violation and they have the courtesy to tell me they have a gun and where it is, they get a pass and sent on their way.

The academy's drills into your head that every single person is going to kill you and while you can't let your guard down during any situation, you also can't effectively do your job if you think every single person is itching to blow you away.

[ironchop]

I've worked with a couple of guys who would act like that. Being the same rank, the only thing I could do is tell them how stupid and afraid they looked. Then after I was promoted, I had a goofball on my squad who tried pulling that crap. That was the last time he did that around me.

There is a way to conduct yourself with a ccw holder and that's not it. There is also a fine line between officer safety and acting like you're going to piss your pants because someone is armed.

If I stop someone for a stupid traffic violation and they have the courtesy to tell me they have a gun and where it is, they get a pass and sent on their way.

The academy's drills into your head that every single person is going to kill you and while you can't let your guard down during any situation, you also can't effectively do your job if you think every single person is itching to blow you away.

The first time was because I had a headlight out. The MCSD officer was literally shaking holding my pistol (Springfield Ultra Compact) and his partner asked if he cleared it so he takes it, racks the slide open, dumps out the shell, drops the slide, then let's the mag drop. I had to tell him and the other guy that the weapon was still hot until they emptied the chamber again. The other guy let me off the pavement and said his partner was new. They were in two separate cars. They also dismantled my gun and asked why I had "cop killer bullets".....they were Cor-Bon +P JHP, not Black Talons.

I understand the extra caution and I don't hate them for doing their job as required. I still appreciate law enforcement and not worrying about my family living in the Wild West is pretty nice.

In Indiana back then, you weren't required to take a safety course for CCW like you do here in Kentucky. You send in two blank money orders and they check you, mail you a permit and a letter that outlines what to do if you come into contact with an officer while carrying. Nothing else. They don't care if you know when it's legal to shoot a fool, they make sure you know how not to get accidentally killed by an officer though. I memorized that sheet and followed the instructions to the letter.

Couple other times were seatbelt checks and those roadside drug roadblocks they got into trouble with the DOJ and SC over them being unconstitutional. It's like a DUI checkpoint but with drug dogs. That was different depts like IPD and State Police. The State Police were the easiest to deal with.

I'm not too mad about it. Alot of officers have been shot and/or killed up there so I'm empathetic to their concerns. I'm upset that I feel hassled for being legal but I will agree with another thing you said because I was having a conversation here with a state boy and a local Sheriff. The subject was police shootings and they both said the same thing you did. They said that they were trained up front that "everyone could potentially kill you" and "when approaching a motorist, just expect trouble until you see otherwise" .....the last part is paraphrasing because I'm not going to say what he actually said. It was much more harsh than that. They both said this is standard LEO training now.

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[ironchop]

I just wanna say.......that feckin boils my blood........like how long do they keep punk records ? ........Florida was bad too !

Yeah we were a group of bad boys about 20 deep from three different highschools and we all grew up in a VERY rural area where everyone loves Jesus and everyone knows everyone else. We were legendary for getting into all sorts of trouble and epic parties that attracted cops. City kids were surprised at how wild country kids were once they found out. They were throwing risky business parties, drinking purple passion and wine coolers, and worrying about broken lamps. We were smashed on kegs and shine, smoking doobs, chasing lines, shooting guns, mud trucks, nekkd girls, ATVs, fireworks wars, arson, vandalism, anything dangerous. Friends died, no joke. So that corner of Johnson County had enough trouble makers per capita to land us on some sort of master list but mostly because everyone knew who the bad kids were. We deserved the scrutiny

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[Arky-X]

Yeah we were a group of bad boys about 20 deep from three different highschools and we all grew up in a VERY rural area where everyone loves Jesus and everyone knows everyone else. We were legendary for getting into all sorts of trouble and epic parties that attracted cops. City kids were surprised at how wild country kids were once they found out. They were throwing risky business parties, drinking purple passion and wine coolers, and worrying about broken lamps. We were smashed on kegs and shine, smoking doobs, chasing lines, shooting guns, mud trucks, nekkd girls, ATVs, fireworks wars, arson, vandalism, anything dangerous. Friends died, no joke. So that corner of Johnson County had enough trouble makers per capita to land us on some sort of master list but mostly because everyone knew who the bad kids were. We deserved the scrutiny

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ATVs?!?!?!?!?!?!?
That's some bad stuff right there.

[redsox]

I feel like my position here is getting me painted as anti-gun. I can assure you that is not the case.

I'm curious why you chose to quote the word suggestion like i used it in a misleading manner.

You should re-read my post. The "suggestion" by the agent to get a dealers license was because I purchased 5 AR lower receivers, which is well within my rights as a law abiding gun owner.

I took you up on the offer and I did re-read your post. You quoted him as saying "maybe you should get a dealers license." Is that something other than a suggestion?

He apparently assumed that I bought them to resell them which was, and still is, incorrect.

Is/was that wrong of him? Should your purchase have lead him to believe otherwise? I am certainly not saying that there is anything wrong with what you bought. But, let me ask you, do most people who purchase 5 lowers at one time buy them for themselves?

No, it's not a necessary delay. There is no reason to violate my right when I do not have a criminal record or a past history of violence or mental instability. It's a crock of sh!t.

Which of your rights were violated, exactly? Are #victim t-shirts for sale on both sides of the aisle now?

You sure about that? Steven Paddock, the Las Vegas shooter, legally purchased 33 firearms from Oct. 2016 to Sept. 2017.

Were any of them doubles or triples (meaning multiple purchases of the same make/model at the same time)? Was he wait-listed on any of them? Also, this example of "it didn't stop him so its pointless" is just as ridiculous as the "if it saves one life" argument you are trying to attribute to me. Farcical.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with this statement. If you are somehow insinuating that I "needed" those 5 receivers so badly that that is the reason I'm frustrated with being delayed, you'd be wrong.

What i'm trying to get at is that this is the way of the world now, and the cost of doing business. You're going to get checked out, and occasionally delayed. Is it mildly inconvenient? Yes. Is it an all-out assault by Nancy Pelosi on your GOD GIVEN RIGHTS AS AN AMERICAN!?!?!? No. I don't think so. At least I don't feel that way. Just like I don't feel violated when mongo brushes my junk at the pat-down before I board jet-blue. Its no big deal.

You seem to be justifying your support for registering and/or licensing to acquire firearms with the "If it saves just one life" argument used by antigunners.

Not at all. And please, spare me the "deserve neither" quote from Uncle Ben. I've heard it. Society wants rules scooter.

[sledcrazyinCT]

All good things take time. If you want a weapon that is your choice and 2nd amendment right. We are all aware there are thousands of gun laws on the books already. Delays to conduct background checks are laws already on the books, or is that an incorrect assumption? Consider yourself lucky to not live in state like CT or NY as they would drive you crazy with their state laws that supersede Federal laws. Imagine needing to file for an ammo purchase permit just to buy 22LR at your local Walmart

[Scootertrash]

I feel like my position here is getting me painted as anti-gun. I can assure you that is not the case.

I'm curious why you chose to quote the word suggestion like i used it in a misleading manner.

First off, just in case there is a misunderstanding about the agents involved: both incidences involved different agents. The one I talked to on the phone about my high incidence of being delayed, the other being the agent who inspected my dealers records. 2 separate incidents, 2 different agents, both incidents unrelated and a couple of years apart.

My highlighting of the word "suggestion" Has nothing to do with my interpretation of how I perceived you meant it. It has to do with the meaning behind a "suggestion" when a person in a position of power makes a "suggestion":

Parent to child: I suggest you stop that behavior

Boss to employee: I suggest you start getting here on time.

I took you up on the offer and I did re-read your post. You quoted him as saying "maybe you should get a dealers license." Is that something other than a suggestion?

See above

Is/was that wrong of him? Should your purchase have lead him to believe otherwise? I am certainly not saying that there is anything wrong with what you bought. But, let me ask you, do most people who purchase 5 lowers at one time buy them for themselves?

Hell yes it's wrong for him to assume I'm doing something wrong. Why would a perfectly legal purchase lead him to believe anything nefarious is going on? You seriously have to ask if it's wrong for a government agent to assume that someone is, or might be doing something illegal, based on a completely legal purchase? Dood, really?

As to the second part of your question, yes, lots of people buy multiple lowers for AR style rifles and keep them for themselves, it's quite common in fact.

Are you familiar with the AR platform of firearms? The ability to build multiple variations of styles and calibers off of one receiver is an attractive trait to a huge majority of gun owners. With those 5 lowers I can build 5 completely different styles and calibers of rifles or pistols, Yes, building/assembling firearms for oneself is completely legal, once again as long as the individual isn't selling the firearms as a business. I'm sure there are certain parameters set forth by the government as to what constitutes "sellling firearms as a business", but since I don't sell firearms they are not my concern.

Which of your rights were violated, exactly? Are #victim t-shirts for sale on both sides of the aisle now?

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

At what point in your life were you victimized to the point that you feel that law abiding gun owners should be subject to a bible sized accumulation of laws and restrictions that criminals, nutcases and loonies don't follow or don't care if they break those laws?

Were any of them doubles or triples (meaning multiple purchases of the same make/model at the same time)? Was he wait-listed on any of them?

What's your point?

I can't answer that question and neither can you, and the Feds aren't gonna tell us. FFS They won't even explain to me why I get delayed even tho I have no criminal record.

Also, this example of "it didn't stop him so its pointless" is just as ridiculous as the "if it saves one life" argument you are trying to attribute to me. Farcical.

Only because you fail to accept THE FACT that all of the laws and background checks failed to stop this guy from allegedly killing or injuring 225 people. Not to mention the 17 other incidents in the article I linked. Did you read it? "If he would have just had to register his guns or get licensed, this never would have happened.........

What i'm trying to get at is that this is the way of the world now, and the cost of doing business.

The only reason it's "the way of the world now" is because a bunch of weak minded, insecure sheep have allowed the elite politicians to convince them that "common sense gun restrictions" will make them safe.

You're going to get checked out, and occasionally delayed. Is it mildly inconvenient? Yes. Is it an all-out assault by Nancy Pelosi on your GOD GIVEN RIGHTS AS AN AMERICAN!?!?!? No. I don't think so. At least I don't feel that way. Just like I don't feel violated when mongo brushes my junk at the pat-down before I board jet-blue. Its no big deal.

You should have your kids and your relatives kids read this book:

Not at all. And please, spare me the "deserve neither" quote from Uncle Ben. I've heard it. Society wants rules scooter.

Yea , it sucks when some old guy helped a bunch of other old guys who had experienced the abuses of governmental overreach and how they affected individual freedoms and god given rights wrote our Constitution to try to eliminate the ability of Government to trample individual rights.

Here's another from James Madison:

“I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.”
― James Madison

Now your politicians have enacted a law to make those evil bump stocks illegal, and if you don't turn them in they will come and confiscate them.

What happened to:

Is it mildly inconvenient? Yes. Is it an all-out assault by Nancy Pelosi on your GOD GIVEN RIGHTS AS AN AMERICAN!?!?!? No. I don't think so. At least I don't feel that way. Just like I don't feel violated when mongo brushes my junk at the pat-down before I board jet-blue. Its no big deal.

You should feel safer now. No big deal. A mild inconvenience. But you are safer now, right?

You argue that it's OK for a federal agent to assume that I am doing or will do something illegal based on a perfectly legal purchase, but it's a violation of your rights that they want to confiscate, by force if necessary, an item that they've declared illegal

You and your fellow gun owners with the "just a few rules" attitude are the ones who have allowed this sh!t to happen, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

Boiling a frog an' sh!t, yo.

If all of these laws make you feel safe, why do you need to carry a gun for protection?