Synthetic oil in Big Red?

[topless]

Problems with changing from mineral oil to synthetic date back into the '70's when Mobil 1 first came out. It was an ester based oil and chemically attacked the standard gasket materials used back then. (cork & rubber, neoprene were the most common) The most common synthetic base used today is PAO (poly alpha olefin). It is completely compatible with any mineral oil. The more expensive oil will use POA with a little ester mixed in because the ester softens seals & gaskets. It also cleans better by breaking down carbon deposits.
The first fill with synthetics will usually get dark quickly because of the cleaning. This goes for any motor, not just trikes.
I run synthetics in everything I own, even my lawnmower.
One thing, break in a new motor with mineral oil, synthetics will keep the rings from seating.

[Taiser]

As a former mechanic, airplane mind you, I can say, with good experience DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC in auto clutch trikes. You are asking for trouble. Synthetics are not compatible with the clutches, as an earlier poster said. It will run fine in the short run but you are going to be in for an expensive repair.

Also someone mentioned that they use synthetic from day one on an engine, another big mistake! Synth is so effective that you will never break your engine in properly. In fact many airplane engines will not warranty them if you use it from day one. Standard is to run the engine for 50-100 hours, then switch to synthetics. Same applies on farm equipment (tractors and such). If you keep an eye on the oil levels and do regular changes, a trike motor should outlive you, even on dyno oil.

[The Goat]

130k on the dash in my scion mobil1 5w30 or 10w30. Mobil1 filter. Changing every 7500-10000 miles my engine is nice and my oil comes out a dark brown at the worst. I drve really hard... 3k and up is where the tach lives, foraying into the red zone more often than not.

Running vr1 for breakin because of god reviews then switching to full synthetic mobil1 motorcycle oil.

I'll never run anything but that post break in, in anything.

[topless]

We have 5 auto clutch trikes and run synthetic in all of them. Ran it in my CT90, auto clutch until I put a Lifan 140cc in it.
Synthetics or mineral oil do not make any difference, if it has the correct additive package for wet clutches. The term synthetic only tells whether it was ever crude oil or not.

[rdlsz24]

High end cars (Corvette, Viper, etc) come with Mobil 1 from the factory, so it can't be too bad for breaking in an engine!

But I am one that uses dino until the first change. I did that in my 04 GTO. Switched to Mobil 1 at 3000 miles.

Rob

[MonroeMike]

Another note I found pertaining to ZDDP

Motor Oil Warning!! from ED ISKENDERIAN RACING CAMS

Important message regarding "break-in" protection for all high performance flat-tappet hydraulic and solid lifter camshafts.Not all motor oils are created equal. Unfortunately, when installing a high performance camshaft, just any oil will not give your new cam installation sufficient protection during the critical break-in period (the mating-in of virgin metal surfaces). This is because government regulators have mandated (as of January '04) the complete elimination of the critical anti-wear additive package (zinc/phosphorus) from all "SM" rated (street legal) motor oils to protect catalytic converters. Isky recommends the use of only the following motor oils for maximum cam lobe and lifter protection before and after the break-in period because they are the only conventional mineral based oils available with generous levels of the zinc/phosphorous additive package:

•Brad Penn Penn-Grade 1 **The very best of all in our opinion and the only oil refined from 100% Pennsylvania crude.**Because we believe the Brad-Penn product to be superior to all other oils, we have enclosed a product brochure for your convenience.

"Special Note Regarding Synthetic Oils** Please note, Isky does not recommend the use of synthetic oils with any flat- tappet camshaft-especially during break-in. If you must use synthetic oil after break-in, there are only two brands we are comfortable recommending. They are Amzoil (Red) Racing Oil and Joe Gibbs Performance Racing Oil. Both contain zinc and phosphorous and will fare well AFTER break-in has been successfully completed. Other synthetics, especially those with very low viscosity index numbers (i.e. Ow-15, 5w-20 etc.) have very low film strength and arc not designed for, nor should they be employed in any flat-tappet cam installation.

[topless]

I'm not sure what Isky cams has to do with running a synthetic oil in a Big Red.
I'll guarantee you that no professional bike race team is running a mineral oil.
Doesn't mean all mineral oil is bad, just means synthetics are superior at lubrication and resistance to heat breakdown.
None of that matters if the wrong additives are in the oil. Modern automotive oils are just wrong for any wet clutch, period, end of story.

[MonroeMike]

I posted it because it pertains to the additive zddp (zinc) that is important for these engines we are using and is being reduced to a level in some oils (including some synthetics) that makes the cams wear faster. I would want to know that, if I was choosing an oil for my big red, synthetic or not.

[Taiser]

Modern automotive oils are just wrong for any wet clutch, period, end of story.

EXACTLY!!!!

[topless]

I posted it because it pertains to the additive zddp (zinc) that is important for these engines we are using and is being reduced to a level in some oils (including some synthetics) that makes the cams wear faster. I would want to know that, if I was choosing an oil for my big red, synthetic or not.

Again, you're mixing automotive oils in with motorcycle oils.
Stay with oils made for bikes and you're covered. If I were dealing with a flat tappet cam in a car motor, I'd run Shell Rotella (diesel) oil or a racing oil to protect my camshaft, exactly as you pointed out. But, I wouldn't run any of those in my trikes or motorcycles because they'd screw up the clutches. The days of going to Walmart and buying a case of oil to run in everything you own, are over.

[The Goat]

1 55 gallon drum of valvoline vr1 from the local napa store is 725$....at 2.5 quarts per change in the 350x... and 4 changes a year...that's what....85 years worth of oil. lol.

couldn't get the synthetic through them in a drum...

[MonroeMike]

I see there's a difference in zddp in valvoline oils. The two I was looking at are the ATV oil (0.102) and the 4-stroke motorcycle oil (0.112). If zinc impregnates itself into the rockers and cam to help prevent wear, wouldn't the latter be better?

I see the VR-1 is not recommended for wet clutches.

[The Goat]

valvoline vr1...or any oil that is rated for gear shear (motor cycle oil) and still has zink in it.

that's coming from people who mainly MX and Drag....

I'd say if their clutches are holding up...our trail rigs will do just fine.

[oscarmayer]

Here's what i found in a google search.

here are the main differences in a nutshell.

"What is the difference between a synthetic oil and a mineral oil?
A lubricant is said to be " mineral " when it is based upon refined crude oil. Synthetic lubricants are manufactured through chemical reactions taking place between various chemical components.
The process for obtaining a synthetic lubricant is therefore more complex and more costly. Nevertheless, synthetic oils have superior properties, including greater resistance to oxidation; this allows their use under very severe conditions (high temperatures) and also results in increased times between oil changes.
Semi-synthetic oils can be obtained by mixing mineral and synthetic oils. This produces, at a more reasonable cost, properties that are superior to mineral oils since they retain the high performance characteristics of the synthetic base.
Many synthetic oils are silicon based polymers rather than carbon based. Silicon has similar properties to carbon in these systems, but sometimes provide better properties at high temperatures such as in a car. Silicone is used on many substitutes for carbon such as in glues, caulks and gaskets.

Both methods take energy to give the final product. Synthetics are probably more expensive based on the cost of the raw materials. Crude oil is cheap. Also note that regular motor oil can have synthetic components added. The term synthetic is used when the major component is synthetic. "

[The Goat]

I could preach about the lower operating temps I see on synthetic vs when I was running regular...but I doubt I'd be believed. lol