225dx No Power...

[splangeland]

Ok, Cleaning my jets seems to have helped quite a bit. It definitely has more pep in its step now I ran down a dirt road quite a few times and I don't seem to have the problem where I felt like it was cutting in and out. However, when I first bought this and I took it down the road I can remember being wide open if fifth gear and all I could think is, "Man this thing needs a sixth gear". Now, when I'm wide open in fifth I definitely don't feel that way, it just doesn't scream like it used to. I did try loading it down and noticed a slight kind of burble, but it was something you really had to listen for as you could hardly hear it. It also wasn't a constant sound more of just when you shifted into a high gear and tried to gun it. I also took the air box lid off and ran it down the road and I think it made it run worse.

I did check the breaks and everything spun freely. So I guess conclusion of the day, It's pretty peppy again but still feels like its missing some top end power. Also, seemes to take a loooong time to warm up.

[El Camexican]

So glad to hear this!

I think you are ready for fine tuning the jetting. How cold is it there? I know you are thinking about top end right now, but to get there you need to start at the bottom. Start your engine, let it get to operating temp and then blip throttle all the way open as fast as you can. Does it bog at all? If it doesn't, start turning the air/fuel screw in or out 1/4 turn at a time until it does and then adjust it back to the last place it didn't bog. On the hand if it does bog at the current setting (and Im guessing it will) play with the screw until you get it cleared up in 1/4 turn increments. Once you are happy with this and are getting good crisp throttle response. Turn the screw all the way closed, note the turns and then put it back to where you had it. Tell us that number in a post.

Now take it for a rip. Don't bother top ending it yet, just 0 to 3/4. Regardless of how good it might seem to run, pull the needle and raise the clip up one notch and go for another rip. Is it better or worse? If its better go one notch more and repeat. If it got worse go down two notches. Repeat untill it seems to be running best. Providing the turns on the screw are not more than 2.5 out from closed (if they are we'll talk) you are now ready to play with the main jet. Do you have some available? If not you'll need to invest in two sizes each way from what you have in there now. Talk more after you post again.

[splangeland]

Question before I get to this tomorrow. Will a new muffler get rid of my need to to jet my carb? I cant seem to find any carb parts for this except buying individual parts off the OEM diagram. I found a nice OEM muffler that I'm trying to get. Oh and its been 40°-50° up here

[ColtonGG33]

It would probably be best if you get an original exhaust, I was looking for a jet kit and they do not sell them anywhere, and you will not have to jet it unless it has been jetted for the exhaust on it now, glad you have it running good, your gonna really like it

[barnett468]

Hello

A new muffler will be more restrictive than your no muffler straight pipe. In short this will cause your jetting to be more rich. This will also cause your bike to warm up a bit faster because it is trapping a little more of the hot exhaust gas in the cylinder. This increased back pressure will not have a major effect on your pilot jet so if it takes full choke at 60 deg or less and doesn't start quickly and you can not totally remove the choke within around 60 seconds and still have it idle you may need to go up 1-2 sizes on the pilot. It is possible that in your particular case that a new muffler will increase your peak rpm.

How far out is your idle screw currently adjusted?


Hooe this info helps.

[El Camexican]

Question before I get to this tomorrow. Will a new muffler get rid of my need to to jet my carb? I cant seem to find any carb parts for this except buying individual parts off the OEM diagram. I found a nice OEM muffler that I'm trying to get. Oh and its been 40°-50° up here

Looks like you’re going to have to choose which advise you’re going to follow as some of us seem to be in disagreement on a few topics.

First of all (in my humble opinion) it doesn’t matter what pipe you have on there you should still take the time to jet it if you want it to run its best. Yamaha took their best shot at jetting it when they shipped it to the US, but the odds that it was perfect for your conditions are slim and none. Close? Yes. Safe? For sure! Perfect? No!!!

Getting something jetted perfectly is a moving target, it can change in an hour due to humidity levels, atmospheric pressure and temperature, but don’t let this scare you, worrying about a small change in air temp is for bracket racers to work about, not you. If you get yours dialed in while its 50F outside and don’t ride in conditions that vary more than 2,000’in elev., or in temps below -20F you’ll be fine forever. If you want to get fussy you can adjust that air/fuel screw if you ever feel a bog when you nail the throttle, but the other jets should be fine.

Contact these guys for rebuild kits and jets. http://www.jetsrus.com/customer_serv...g_address.html

Do get that OEM pipe if you can, a lot of really smart guys designed it to work for your trike.

As far as some of the comments on here about what does what to your jetting needs, i.e. unrestricted pipes make engines run leaner etc. I’d take it all with a grain of salt. There are way too many variables involved to make absolute statements like that and being that MOST vehicles from that era came jetted for sea level conditions, they are too rich to start with. Besides, do you even know if you have stock jets in that carb?

You can’t “guess” jetting until you have set a baseline at some point. You don’t have one, all you know is that your trike ran better at some point. While it does seem you are a little lean on the pilot (and this may end up being fixed just with the screw adjustment) I suspect you are rich on the main, but until you go up a size and make it even richer to be certain you can’t be sure. You don’t want to start by dropping a size and burning a hole in your piston on a hunch. Yea jets cost money, but once you have the jetting nailed you’ll be glad you invested in the time and brass to do it.

[barnett468]

Hello Spangeland


Hope your carb repair fixed part if not all of your biggest problem.

“There was a small amount of gunk inside the pilot, nothing substantial but there was a little. I also noticed that neither of the two juts were any too tight. Seemed kind of loose to me. I had checked the float height when I had the carb off a few weeks ago so, if I did it right that is still good to go. Like I said it was too late to take a spin with pipes this loud but believe me, it will be the first thing I do when I get home tomorrow.”

Yes, the gunk in jets and loose jets certainly weren’t helping. Hopefully this fix along with your pipe will get you very close.


El Camexican, the following is mainly just an explanation of how the major factory’s bikes were actually jetted during my time at Kawi R and D and is not intended to devalue the content of your posts. I read everyone’s post completely in every topic I post to and I think you as well as most others make a genuine effort to actually help people… So please take no offense in it.

Xxxxx

‘Yamaha took their best shot at jetting it when they shipped it to the US, but the odds that it was perfect for your conditions are slim and none. Close? Yes. Safe? For sure! Perfect? No!!!”

Not really, they were actually jetted on the dyno in Japan first then sent out for testing which included jet testing. Afterwards the bikes were sent to us Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki with Japan’s best overall jet setting. From there we all did the final jet testing/setting in So Cal. This setting was sent to Japan.

xxxx

Contact these guys for rebuild kits and jets. http://www.jetsrus.com/customer_serv...g_address.html

Good info

xxxxx

Do get that OEM pipe if you can, a lot of really smart guys designed it to work for your trike.

Correct, and good info as a rule of thumb but aftermarket pipes and/or silencers will provide aften improve the overall performance on an otherwise stock vehicle providing it is jetted accordingly after installation. Removing the silencer on the t3 Tecates and replacing them with low restriction non spark arrestor type silencers substantially improved overall performance.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

“MOST vehicles from that era came jetted for sea level conditions”

Not really, not a single bike that went through the US R and D dept’s of any od the mfg’s I mentioned were ever specifically jetted for sea level. We all tested our respective vehicles at above sea level conditions in places like Saddleback, De Anza, Carlsbad, Gorman and Indian Dunes motorcycle parks as well as the high desert and various other locations etc. We never even had a bike anywhere near sea level.

xxxxx

“they are too rich to start with.”

Most off road bikes seem to be, at least I have personally never seen a lean factory jetted bike. Kawi's were typically jetted close to perform well between the locations I previously mentioned however Japan did frequently up the main by 1 size from our recommended best setting. Japan told us that this was to hopefully prevent lean condition engine failures and subsequently minimize warranties. I have to guess that this was the same for the other mfg’s since I had long time friends that worked at both Honda and Yamaha R and D and they certainly knew how to jet bikes. I personally jetted every single Kawi ATV and several off road motorcycles while I was there, what Japan did to mess them up after that was beyond my control.

xxxxx

“Besides, do you even know if you have stock jets in that carb?”

Still a good question.

Xxxxx

I like your post, but now that we know he has squeeze in the engine I'm stuck on this being a fuel/air issue until the process of elimination is over.

Oh, I am not ruling that out either along with several other things as well. My process of elimination comments were based upon the information provided by Spangeland and was subject to the accuracy and completeness of those comments. However his “gummy” carb and loose jets certainly weren’t helping his bikes condition at all. After you recommended he look at his carb I eluded to the same thing in a subsequent post concurring with your suggestion.

Xxxxx

From six stroke’s post

“I had an XS650 for a while that would lean pop after you cut the throttle. Bumped up the pilot size and it took care of it.”

Yes, I absolutely agree that in some off throttle deceleration straight pipe engine popping cases this can occasionally help reduce the severity of the condition and occasionally totally eliminate it. My previous comment regarding this specific issue was aimed at Spangeland’s specific case and if my comment is read within the context in which it was made this should hopefully explain the reason I made it. At the time I made it I saw no need for going into any more specific detail than I did in this particular case.

Sorry for any confusion it might of caused.

[El Camexican]

Barrnet468

What I like about this site is that aside from the interaction, the members such as yourself have very diverse backgrounds the arena of motorsports as well as life. Whatever you may think offends me, or that I have done which was perceived to have been meant to offend you let’s get past it. I had issue with the falloutboy post yesterday and now I've said my piece and I’m over it. Should you chose to disagree with my opinion or advice at any point in the future I look forward to the read and learning from it.

That all said you seem to have been involved with some high level tuning, something I never did for anyone outside of my circle of friends/clients. Your latest post is very informative, but I am surprised with your comments about the jetting i.e Japan sends, you test, they change etc. Were you conducting your tests in a controlled environment, or on a track? Would you agree with me stating that air density, which in my learning’s is all that really matters in terms of what is going through your carb and into your engine, can vary a few thousand feet in the same patch of land, on the same day within the time span of a few hours?

When I was drag racing I recall corrected elevation conditions of -1,000ft at 9:00am and by 2:00pm eliminations we were at +2,000ft and running 3/10ths slower. So what has me scratching my head here is why would a factory in Japan which surely could afford to simulate a variety of conditions in a controlled dyno room choose to send bikes to the US for jetting tests in ever changing conditions? Or was it primarily for suspension and handling tests and jetting was just part of getting ready to do that?

And finally, I swear that in my old 1979 Yamaha manual, or handbook stated that my bike came jetted to sea-level conditions and that I was to jet it upon receipt. I also recall reading that in other places, but I’d be hard pressed to remember where. Anyway, just curious, but I would like to see this guy get his trike jetted perfectly for his average conditions and not just revert back to whatever it came with.

Commenting further on your last post in no particular order, I continue to suspect most if not all his problems are jet related and have experienced intermittent “fall on its face” symptoms due to ‘floaters” in a dirty carb more than once, its especialy bad if other holes are plugged. I’ve never had a jet come loose, but a few guys on here have, not sure how loose his were, but it it was a lot that could be all of it. I hope this is all he has to deal with.

As far as a stock pipe holding back power, I’m sure many models did, especially race oriented ones like the T3, but I am intimately familiar with the 200cc version of his workhorse motor and have been kicking myself for tossing away my perfectly good stocker and putting on a Cobra which I have yet to finish jetting for. That bike's pipe was well designed for the application.

Some bikes did come lean. One I can think of was the 1985 GSXR had a very lean midrange that was caused in part by the float height and the factory fuel screw settings, but for the most part most do seem to come nice and safe.

As far as his symptom descriptions, yea he was a little scattered in the first posts, but at least it wasn’t one of those “It makes a clunk noise like after you flush the toilet, then it hauls azz, then it stalls, but only when I run premium fuel and wear my red t-shirt” type posts. It’s frustrating when you try an diagnose something from across the continent knowing full well you could fix it in 15 minutes if it was in your shop, but such is life. The good news is that he is listening, reacting and communicating. A lot of kids, post and disappear without so much as an “up yers” and the result is that a lot of smart, experienced guys on here won’t even answer a question until the member looks like they are going to respond accordingly.

That said I am glad to see that you have not yet been jaded like this towards newbs and hope you never are.

[splangeland]

My main focus for now is going to be exhaust, since I need it to legally ride trails around here and its just plain annoying. I am bidding on a muffler right now. I'm not sure if I will have enough money to get a muffler and jets but I'm going to try. I was thinking of maybe taking it to the dunes this summer so I will definitely want to be running absolutely peak performance if I can but for now I need a muffler so the man with the green britches doesn't write me a ticket.

[El Camexican]

My main focus for now is going to be exhaust, since I need it to legally ride trails around here and its just plain annoying. I am bidding on a muffler right now. I'm not sure if I will have enough money to get a muffler and jets but I'm going to try. I was thinking of maybe taking it to the dunes this summer so I will definitely want to be running absolutely peak performance if I can but for now I need a muffler so the man with the green britches doesn't write me a ticket.

Cool! No point to jetting till its on, but you may want to at least play with the air/fuel screw if you plan to use it before getting the pipe on it.

[splangeland]

Yeah I was hoping to play with it when I got home today but its 30 and pouring rain... just to cold for me. I don't work tomorrow so I hope to get at it first thing tomorrow

[barnett468]

My main focus for now is going to be exhaust, since I need it to legally ride trails around here and its just plain annoying. I am bidding on a muffler right now. I'm not sure if I will have enough money to get a muffler and jets but I'm going to try. I was thinking of maybe taking it to the dunes this summer so I will definitely want to be running absolutely peak performance if I can but for now I need a muffler so the man with the green britches doesn't write me a ticket.

Hello Splangeland


In regards to your posts 32 and 34, as I previously mentioned and so did El Camexican and possibly others, I wouldn’t worry about jetting until your muffler is installed.

Any LESS popping?

A good oem spark arrester/muffler may be very hard to come by. No sparky, no ridey, bad green man will cometh with ticket book as you mentioned, lol. I would take the jet money and put it towards the pipe right now. Jets are easy to come by, and your bike seems to run better now anyway so…

I replied to El Camexican’s questions for me below only because I though some of the info might help or at least be interesting to you. Sorry for the long post.

xxxxx

Barrnet468

“What I like about this site is that aside from the interaction, the members such as yourself have very diverse backgrounds the arena of motorsports as well as life.”

Yes me too.

Xxxxx

“Whatever you may think offends me, or that I have done which was perceived to have been meant to offend you let’s get past it. I had issue with the falloutboy post yesterday and now I've said my piece and I’m over it.”

If anyone objectively reads my post regarding this with an open and objective mind they will understand it. I don’t condone are accept those sort of comments and behavior in the context of which they were written from anyone nor should anyone else ever!

xxxxx

“Should you chose to disagree with my opinion or advice at any point in the future I look forward to the read and learning from it.”

That’s a rare attitude to have, I have the same however I never debate “facts” they are simply there to accept or not accept.

xxxxx

“That all said you seem to have been involved with some high level tuning, something I never did for anyone outside of my circle of friends/clients.”

I don't know how to answer this question without sounding arrogant which I am not but here’s a short answer for which I'm guessing I will get flack for anyway, lol. Among many other things I have done I have probably easily done over 700 jet changes on both bikes and cars in my life including drilling, filing, cutting and other carb mods etc., and no it is not because I do not know what I am doing, lol. The long term Kawi MX race mechanics have probably done as many or maybe more.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

“Your latest post is very informative”

Thanks, nice to hear. I am actually somewhat human, lol.

Xxxxx

“I am surprised with your comments about the jetting i.e Japan sends, you test, they change etc. Were you conducting your tests in a controlled environment, or on a track?”

With regards to your specific question, I personally did all tests outdoors.

xxxxx

“Would you agree with me stating that air density, which in my learning’s is all that really matters in terms of what is going through your carb and into your engine, can vary a few thousand feet in the same patch of land, on the same day within the time span of a few hours?”

Sorry, I don’t quite understand your question. It is not because I don’t understand the effects of air density and other environmental conditions on all aspects if an engines performance. I think you have 2 or more questions here. In short air density plays a significant roke in jetting but is in no means the ONLY onbe that does. The race teams kept logs of elevation, humidity and air temp and the best jetting for those conditions so when they went to the next track they could simply refer to their notes and quickly gwt it jetted close quickly. Jeff Ward was laid back and patient, Goat Brecker could care less how his bike ran just pin it. Others had different attitudes and the mechanic didn’t want to rile them by fiddling with jetting all practice.

Think about this if you want, for every 1000 feet increase in elevation a gas engine will LOOSE around 5 psi of cranking compression [this is different than static compression] ie. An engine with a cranking compression of 150 psi at sea level [like many used bikes have] and take it up the mountain to 10,000 feet it will then have a cranking compression of 100 psi, [5x10=50 subtracted from 150]. A gas engine needs a minimum of approximately 105 cranking compression to run therefore it simply will not have enough compression to do so and one can try and jet it from here till next Sunday and it still never will. It’s simple physics.

Xxxxx

“When I was drag racing I recall corrected elevation conditions of -1,000ft at 9:00am and by 2:00pm eliminations we were at +2,000ft and running 3/10ths slower.”

Absolutely I am very familiar with how they calculate times [world records] in drag racing. If you research or watch drags on tv you will also hear them talk about the percentage of bits per million or whatever of water in the air [humidity]. The big guys take this into account for jetting as well as for traction conditions and combine this info with other info to set up their jetting, timing and clutch slippage accordingly. Unbelievably scientific now.

xxxxx

“what has me scratching my head here is why would a factory in Japan which surely could afford to simulate a variety of conditions in a controlled dyno room choose to send bikes to the US for jetting tests in ever changing conditions?”

I have never seen an environmentally controlled dyno room. Both the ones in Japan and at US R and D were enclosed for safety and noise considerations only. A very famous guy named Rob Muzzy tested the factory Superbikes on the dyno at kawi 50’ from my desk. I could literally feel the vibration through the floor and on occasion they would grenade big time and I actually heard parts hit the dyno room walls on one occasion, lol. Then I would hear a bit of colorful language from a very unhappy Muzzy.

Dynos work great and we would be lost without them. Drag racing is done under more controlled conditions than an off road bike in the dunes so as far as jetting goes they are simply a guide. Keep in mind the drag guys dyno the heck out of their motors and never, ever use the dyno jetting for the actual on track jetting. It simply doesn’t work that way.

On the 86 t3 prototype they sent me the a few different pipes along with the jet settings and DYNO sheets and said pick the one that works best in the field. Strangely enough the pipe that worked best under actually “race” type conditions as well as “recreational” sand riding etc, produced LESS hp/tq than the pipe that had the most on the dyno. Anyone with extensive dyno and real world driving/riding experience will tell you, “you can’t drive a dyno”. It’s best not to get “married” to the results.

The 86 t3 prototype had a ping [detonation] under some conditions which were difficult to replicate on the dyno. They asked me to try and jet it out. I spent 2 weeks doing this. Harry Klemm even offered to make us a cylinder head with a different squish band which he did and it might have helped a little but Japan wasn’t interested in that. I told them all along it was the restrictive muffler/spark arrester but that obviously couldn’t be changed. Thank goodness they decided to leave it and not lower the compression or change port timing or reduce ign advance etc.

Back then we at US R and D didn’t have a cad program until around 1986. All drawings were done by HAND. If a bike could be perfectly designed on paper or the computer then no one would need an R and D dept. They are much closer to doing this now than before however.

xxxxx

“was it primarily for suspension and handling tests and jetting was just part of getting ready to do that?”

Yes, a prototype bike was never tested for jetting only and nothing else.

xxxxx

“ I swear that in my old 1979 Yamaha manual, or handbook stated that my bike came jetted to sea-level conditions and that I was to jet it upon receipt. I also recall reading that in other places”

LOL, LOL Yes I’m sure you are 100% correct. I remember a similar thing somewhere and in fact the Kawi manual may have said this exact same thing. The simple answer is that this statement is a blatant LIE but an excusable one. The mfg’s very well knew that due to the varied conditions an off road bike might be used under it might need to be rejetted from stock to optimize performance. This comment would have been made for two reasons, 1. They did not want someone buying a bike, riding it, having it run poorly, then having the customer bad mouthing the bike as this could potentially diminish sales. 2. They did not want someone to wash out their rings or seize a piston etc because they did not want to pay for warranties that otherwise could have been avoided. The mfg’s truly wanted the customer to be happy.

You will never, ever see a street legal bike make this statement, the reason is mentioned in a comment below.

xxxxx

“Anyway, just curious, but I would like to see this guy get his trike jetted perfectly for his average conditions and not just revert back to whatever it came with.”

I would too.

xxxxx

“I continue to suspect most if not all his problems are jet related and have experienced intermittent “fall on its face” symptoms due to ‘floaters” in a dirty carb more than once”

I have had this exact “floater’ problem several times before this is why I eluded to this being a possibility in a previous post. You will find it if you re-read them.

xxxxx

“I’ve never had a jet come loose, but a few guys on here have, not sure how loose his were, but it it was a lot that could be all of it. I hope this is all he has to deal with.”

Yes

xxxx

“As far as a stock pipe holding back power, I’m sure many models did, especially race oriented ones like the T3, but I am intimately familiar with the 200cc version of his workhorse motor and have been kicking myself for tossing away my perfectly good stocker and putting on a Cobra which I have yet to finish jetting for. That bike's pipe was well designed for the application.”

I never said it wasn’t, in fact my recent post says specifically that he may increase his peak rpm by installing a new stock pipe which will be more restrictive than his existing straight one.

xxxxx

“Some bikes did come lean. One I can think of was the 1985 GSXR had a very lean midrange that was caused in part by the float height and the factory fuel screw settings, but for the most part most do seem to come nice and safe.”

I never said some bikes did NOT come please re-read my previous post. I said I never saw an OFF ROAD bike come lean. In fact many ON HIGHWAY bikes come on the verge of being lean for sure. The difference being that the off road bikes have no EPA requirements regarding emissions but the on highway ones are heavily regulated in this regard.

xxxxx

“As far as his symptom descriptions, yea he was a little scattered in the first posts, but at least it wasn’t one of those “It makes a clunk noise like after you flush the toilet, then it hauls azz, then it stalls, but only when I run premium fuel and wear my red t-shirt” type posts.”

Yes, I think he did a very good job. It is very, very hard to describe conditions if one is not an expert in a specific area. I think few if any us could describe how to do heart surgery, lol.

Xxxxx

“It’s frustrating when you try an diagnose something from across the continent knowing full well you could fix it in 15 minutes if it was in your shop, but such is life.”

Yup, to say the least.

Xxxxx

“The good news is that he is listening, reacting and communicating.”

Same answer as above.

xxxxx

“A lot of kids, post and disappear without so much as an “up yers” and the result is that a lot of smart, experienced guys on here won’t even answer a question until the member looks like they are going to respond accordingly.”

Yes, I understand. I think that ANY type of follow up or final response irregardless of what it is is better than nothing. At least if it’s an “up yers” it would still be entertaining and therefore have value in my opinion, lol.

Xxxxx

“That said I am glad to see that you have not yet been jaded like this towards newbs and hope you never are.”

I am far from being the most patient person in the but I enjoy at least TRYING to help others IF I think I can, PROVIDING they make at least some sort of attempt to help themselves by simply THOROUGHLY reading ALL HELPFUL replies no matter who makes them. I don’t care if they don’t understand them but “PLEASE don’t ask the EXACT same question that was just answered in the post directly above yours” , come on now however I will not berate someone for doing this either, I will simply refer them to the post in which their duplicate question is answered. I realize it can be overwhelming for an inexperienced mechanic or other to assimilate some of the info and things can easily be missed in some posts.

If I am “jaded” at all it would be due to those instances referred to in your first comment at the top of this post.


Regards

[splangeland]

Yeah there was definitely less popping going on. There was still some but I figure that's to be expexted like you guys said with crap exhaust. It seemed a little harder to start but it may have just been because it was a little colder than it had been. As far as the long post, this cool with me. I enjoy reading all the info and hearing about all the cool stuff you guys have done. Its also nice to see that two people can have a disagreement and have a civil discussion rather than just skipping the shouting and name calling. Too often nowadays somebody disagrees with a nother person and never stops to listen to the persons reasons on why they think they may be wrong, and it goes from a discussion to an all out idiotic brawl.

[Scootertrash]

Hello Splangeland
<snip>
Regards

Holy wall of text Batman!!!

[splangeland]

Alright so, I turned my pilot in untill I heard the engine change and that backed it out 1/4 of a turn. I had it set at stock which is turn in untill it lightly seats and then back it out 1 1/2 turns. I ended up turninf it in about 1/2 a turn I think. I didn't get a chance to play with the needled. I did notice though, if I turn it off even for a minute it will go back to the problem I had before. You can the gas and just have no acceleration. You can feel that it wants to get up and go bu it just wont do it. It only lasts for a minute or two then goes back to full power. Outran my buddies blaster. When it gets "the problem" it sounds, wet fartish I guess is the best way I can describe it